Catholic doctrine on torture

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Guilherme1

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Torture was for centuries a legal practice of the Inquisition, it was approved by popes, it was approved by great theologians like Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Alphonsus Liguori and it was even approved by an ecumenical council (Council of Vienne).

How exactly was torture not infallibly approved as correct by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium? It’s even possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture (CCC 2297 and 2298)?
 
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Torture was for centuries a legal practice of the Inquisition, it was approved by popes, it was approved by great theologians like Saint Thomas of Aquino and Saint Alphonsus Liguori and it was even approved by an ecumenical council (Council of Vienne).

How exactly was torture not infallibly approved as correct by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium? It’s even possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture (CCC 2297 and 2298)?
I would guess the same way as with capital punishment.
 
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Guilherme1:
Torture was for centuries a legal practice of the Inquisition, it was approved by popes, it was approved by great theologians like Saint Thomas of Aquino and Saint Alphonsus Liguori and it was even approved by an ecumenical council (Council of Vienne).

How exactly was torture not infallibly approved as correct by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium? It’s even possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture (CCC 2297 and 2298)?
I would guess the same way as with capital punishment.
The problem is that torture apparently is intrinsically evil (Veritatis Splendor). You can also find the USCCB holding this position.
 
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Where does it say that?
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  1. Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature “incapable of being ordered” to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image. These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed “intrinsically evil” ( intrinsece malum ): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that “there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”. The Second Vatican Council itself, in discussing the respect due to the human person, gives a number of examples of such acts: “Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit; whatever is offensive to human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution and trafficking in women and children; degrading conditions of work which treat labourers as mere instruments of profit, and not as free responsible persons: all these and the like are a disgrace, and so long as they infect human civilization they contaminate those who inflict them more than those who suffer injustice, and they are a negation of the honour due to the Creator”.
 
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So perhaps to shed some light on the issue we should consider when was torture first applied as a means of obtaining a confession of guilt (NOT to be confused with the Sacrament of Reconciliation) and by whom.
You will possibly find that torture was quite common in many cultures thousands of years before Christianity came along.
We see that a few Prophets of the Old Testament were subjected to it.
But was it a practice of the Jews? or even the Israelite?
This article in the Catholic Encyclopedia can shed additional insights on the subject of the Inquisition: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Inquisition

Peace!
 
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I found this site that apparently solves much of the problem. Basically it says:

1- It is necessary to make distinctions between extraction torture and punitive torture, between torture itself and the procedures and restrictions that safeguard torture, and between torture that does not destroy bodily integrity and torture that destroys it.

Saint Thomas Aquinas had taught that the state had “perfect coercive power”. Therefore, the execution of a just sentence by the state for a serious crime was the only time Aquinas agreed that bodily integrity could be destroyed by “death and mutilation”. In examining confession-extracting torture, he appears to have agreed with Pope Innocent IV that ensuring the individual’s survival and his bodily integrity were the limits of what was allowed in this type of torture; this is not due to the inherent dignity of the person, but because in the extraction torture often the fault of one of the parties has not yet been determined.

Punitive torture, on the other hand, is a totally different story. Here the guilt was established, and the state, by virtue of its “perfect coercive power”, is even capable of exceeding these limits established when it comes to punishing. Consequently, the state had the authority not only to sentence men to death, but also to inflict “irreparable” punishments that are minor than death, such as mutilation, cutting off members, flogging, etc.

2- Isn’t Pope Innocent IV in total contradiction with Pope St. Nicholas I? Not if we understand the arguments correctly. The first Christian millennium, exemplified by Nicholas I, said that “Torturing to extract information is ineffective and, therefore, an abuse of justice”, to which the second Christian millennium, exemplified by Innocent IV, replied that “UNLESS the application of torture is protected by appropriate guidelines”. It was a legitimate development of teaching based on the legal developments of the canonist movement in the 12th and 13th centuries.

Note that, from a moral point of view, this development in teaching would not have been possible if the original arguments against torture were based on the dignity of the human person, but as Saint Augustine and Saint Nicholas I’s arguments against torture were based on the inefficiency of the method, it left room for developments in teaching: if torture could produce reliable results, it would be fair and therefore permissible. Again, although the first millennium condemned the use of torture, they did not recognize any fundamental human right to be not tortured and, therefore, the development represented by the papal bull Ad Extirpanda was possible.
 
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3- Torture in the times of Ancient Rome and the Christian era, whether of extraction or punishment, was part of some legal code. Remember the objections of St. Augustine and St. Nicholas I: their main concern was not “the dignity of the human person”, but that the legal procedures of the Christian community were fair. They believed that torture, as it was legislated in the Roman Empire, was unjust. St. Thomas Aquinas, Innocent IV, and the men of the 13th century believed that it was possible to change these bad qualities of the torture procedure to ensure that the torture was just. But neither Aquinas, nor Augustine, nor any canonist, theologian or Catholic saint would approve the occurrence of torture outside any legal code. The primary concern of every Catholic who ever wrote about it before Vatican II was to preserve justice; justice cannot be preserved in situations where torture is practiced in the shadows, without public supervision and outside legal procedures. Aquinas, who allowed the use of torture in heretics, imagined it integrated as part of a legal process; those who quote Saint Thomas Aquinas in support of extrajudicial torture must understand that Aquinas would be horrified by the idea of torture being inflicted outside the limits of the law.

4- The first torture’s condemnation without explicit specifications occurs at Gaudium et Spes (the document was later quoted by John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor). Father Brian Harrison notes that the pastoral nature of Gaudium et Spes suggests that its recommendations are aimed at addressing the problems of the modern world in particular. If Gaudium et Spes is limited in scope to the problems of the modern world, then when the document condemns torture, it is mainly condemning torture as experienced and understood in the 20th century, not all the types of theoretical cases of torture that date back to ancient times. Torture in the 20th century was an extrajudicial praticy, so it was immoral, since extrajudicial torture is intrinsically evil.

5- About paragraph 2298 of the Catechism, which cites no previous authority, this passage simply needs to be revised to make it more historically accurate and to reflect the distinctions that Catholic history has admitted on this topic. The paragraph as it stands today is simply misleading. If it is argued that it is heretical to suggest that a paragraph in the Catechism is wrong and should be changed, it can be noted that paragraph 2358 of the Catechism on homosexuality was substantially changed between the 1st and the 2nd edition. The Catechism contains infallible teachings in its content, but it is not in itself an infallible document, so there may be fallible teachings within the Catechism.
 
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I can agree with torture being used as a form of punishment. After all, if the state has the authority to impose the maximum penalty, the death penalty, why would it not have the authority to impose minor penalties, such as mutilation?

Perhaps I can agree with the idea of torture being used to extract information from convicted criminals.

But I am having a hard time agreeing with the idea of legally innocent people being tortured in the search of a confession from them, even if they are probably guilty.
 
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I found this site that apparently solves much of the problem. Basically it says:

1- It is necessary to make distinctions between extraction torture and punitive torture, between torture itself and the procedures and restrictions that safeguard torture, and between torture that does not destroy bodily integrity and torture that destroys it.

Saint Thomas Aquinas had taught that the state had “perfect coercive power”. Therefore, the execution of a just sentence by the state for a serious crime was the only time Aquinas agreed that bodily integrity could be destroyed by “death and mutilation”. In examining confession-extracting torture, he appears to have agreed with Pope Innocent IV that ensuring the individual’s survival and bodily integrity were the limits of what was allowed in this type of torture; this is not due to the inherent dignity of the person, but because in the extraction torture often the fault of one of the parties has not yet been determined.

Punitive torture, on the other hand, is a totally different story. Here the guilt was established, and the state, by virtue of its “perfect coercive power”, is even capable of exceeding these limits established when it comes to punishing. Consequently, the state had the authority not only to sentence men to death, but also to inflict “irreparable” punishments that minor than death, such as mutilation, cutting off members, flogging, etc.

2- Isn’t Pope Innocent IV in total contradiction with Pope St. Nicholas I? Not if we understand the arguments correctly. The first Christian millennium, exemplified by Nicholas I, said that “Torturing to extract information is ineffective and, therefore, an abuse of justice”, to which the second Christian millennium, exemplified by Innocent IV, replied that “UNLESS its application is protected by appropriate guidelines”. It was a legitimate development of teaching based on the legal developments of the canonist movement in the 12th and 13th centuries.

Note that, from a moral point of view, this development in teaching would not have been possible if the original arguments against torture were based on the dignity of the human person, but as Saint Augustine and Saint Nicholas I’s arguments against torture were based on the inefficiency of the method, it left room for developments in teaching: if torture could produce reliable results, it would be fair and therefore permissible. Again, although the first millennium condemned the use of torture, they did not recognize any fundamental human right not to be tortured and, therefore, the development represented by the papal bull Ad Extirpanda was possible.
By the way, this is the site where I found all this information: http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.co...cal-and-ethical-perspectives.html#distinction
 
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Vico:
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Guilherme1:
Torture was for centuries a legal practice of the Inquisition, it was approved by popes, it was approved by great theologians like Saint Thomas of Aquino and Saint Alphonsus Liguori and it was even approved by an ecumenical council (Council of Vienne).

How exactly was torture not infallibly approved as correct by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium? It’s even possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture (CCC 2297 and 2298)?
I would guess the same way as with capital punishment.
The problem is that torture apparently is intrinsically evil (Veritatis Splendor). You can also find the USCCB holding this position.
Torture, proper, is the direct and deliberate infliction of severe violence against the innocent. An example of the just application of suffering is those in hell.
 
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Guilherme1:
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Vico:
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Guilherme1:
Torture was for centuries a legal practice of the Inquisition, it was approved by popes, it was approved by great theologians like Saint Thomas of Aquino and Saint Alphonsus Liguori and it was even approved by an ecumenical council (Council of Vienne).

How exactly was torture not infallibly approved as correct by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium? It’s even possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture (CCC 2297 and 2298)?
I would guess the same way as with capital punishment.
The problem is that torture apparently is intrinsically evil (Veritatis Splendor). You can also find the USCCB holding this position.
Torture, proper, is the direct and deliberate infliction of severe violence against the innocent. An example of the just application of suffering is those in hell.
The Inquisition is not known for using torture only for legally convicted criminals. Torture to extract confessions was the big deal for the Inquisition.

I also learned that it is not God or the Devil who tortures souls in Hell, but it is a self-imposed torture, so I don’t know if Hell is a justification for torture by the state. (Who tortures souls in hell? | Catholic Answers Q&A)
 
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Actually, confessions extracted under torture had no force of law.
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The bull argued that as heretics are “murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s and of the Christian faith …”, they are “to be coerced—as are thieves and bandits—into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb.”

The legal use of torture to extract confessions is also very well documented in the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisition.
 

[Is it] possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture? …

I also learned that it is not God or the Devil who tortures souls in Hell, but it is a self-imposed torture, so I don’t know if Hell is a justification for torture by the state. …
The person that voluntarily chooses the evil that results in punishment of deprivation does not know the actual extent of that punishment.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that “God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 412) Regarding punishment (eternal and temporal) the Catechism states in 1472: "These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. "

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
 
And we all know it was in the 1930s when the US stopped using torture to extract confessions. Most, if not all, countries used it. As did Spain and Portugal during there inquisitions. Prisoners were known to confess heresies to escape the torture and be handed over to the protection of the church where they were asked to recant. I don’t know what happened if they would not and remained either Jews, Muslim, or heretics.
 
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Guilherme1:

[Is it] possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture? …

I also learned that it is not God or the Devil who tortures souls in Hell, but it is a self-imposed torture, so I don’t know if Hell is a justification for torture by the state. …
The person that voluntarily chooses the evil that results in punishment of deprivation does not know the actual extent of that punishment.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that “God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 412) Regarding punishment (eternal and temporal) the Catechism states in 1472: "These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. "

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
How exactly does all this justify the torture of legally innocent people?
 
Torture is intrinsically wrong regardless of the guilt or innocence of the person.
 
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Vico:
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Guilherme1:

[Is it] possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture? …

I also learned that it is not God or the Devil who tortures souls in Hell, but it is a self-imposed torture, so I don’t know if Hell is a justification for torture by the state. …
The person that voluntarily chooses the evil that results in punishment of deprivation does not know the actual extent of that punishment.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that “God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 412) Regarding punishment (eternal and temporal) the Catechism states in 1472: "These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. "

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
How exactly does all this justify the torture of legally innocent people?
My catechism quote is not about legally innocent people but about defense. I provided a definition before that torture, proper, is the direct and deliberate infliction of severe violence against the innocent . An example of the just application of suffering is those in hell.
 
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Guilherme1:
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Vico:
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Guilherme1:

[Is it] possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture? …

I also learned that it is not God or the Devil who tortures souls in Hell, but it is a self-imposed torture, so I don’t know if Hell is a justification for torture by the state. …
The person that voluntarily chooses the evil that results in punishment of deprivation does not know the actual extent of that punishment.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that “God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 412) Regarding punishment (eternal and temporal) the Catechism states in 1472: "These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. "

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
How exactly does all this justify the torture of legally innocent people?
My catechism quote is not about legally innocent people but about defense. I provided a definition before that torture, proper, is the direct and deliberate infliction of severe violence against the innocent . An example of the just application of suffering is those in hell.
And how exactly does your quote from the catechism solve my doubts?
 
I provided a definition before that torture, proper, is the direct and deliberate infliction of severe violence against the innocent .
i am against torture whether it be proper or improper. Once torture becomes acceptable for use on others, you’d better watch out because it can then become acceptable to use torture on you or your loved ones. Not so nice to be tortured.
 
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Vico:
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Guilherme1:
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Vico:
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Guilherme1:

[Is it] possible to reconcile the Church’s old teaching on torture with the current Church’s teaching on torture? …

I also learned that it is not God or the Devil who tortures souls in Hell, but it is a self-imposed torture, so I don’t know if Hell is a justification for torture by the state. …
The person that voluntarily chooses the evil that results in punishment of deprivation does not know the actual extent of that punishment.

Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that “God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 412) Regarding punishment (eternal and temporal) the Catechism states in 1472: "These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. "

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
How exactly does all this justify the torture of legally innocent people?
My catechism quote is not about legally innocent people but about defense. I provided a definition before that torture, proper, is the direct and deliberate infliction of severe violence against the innocent . An example of the just application of suffering is those in hell.
And how exactly does your quote from the catechism solve my doubts?
If you do not see how it applies, then it does not. Your (name removed by moderator)ut is needed in order to do that.
 
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